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Nowhere do we realistically teach ourselves and our children how love deepens and stumbles, survives and evolves over time, and how that process has much more to do with ourselves than with what is right or wrong about our partner. So we have this ideal of what love is and then these very, very unhelpful narratives of love. Love is at its most necessary when we are weak, when we feel incomplete, and we must show love to one another at those points. The only conditions — as we know with children, the only conditions under which anyone learns are conditions of incredible sweetness, tenderness, patience. But the problem is that the failures of our relationships have made us so anxious that we can’t be the teachers we should be. And not to infantilize them, but when we’re dealing with children as parents, as adults, we’re incredibly generous in the way we interpret their behavior. I think there’s a certain wisdom that begins by knowing that of course you, like everyone else, is pretty difficult. Our parents don’t tell us, our ex-lovers — they knew it, but they couldn’t be bothered to tell us. And often, you can be way into your 40s before you’re starting to get a sense of, “Well, maybe some of the problem is in me.” Because of course, it’s so intuitive to think that of course it’s the other person. There are islands and moments of beautiful connection, but we have to be modest about how often they’re going to happen. If I can be indiscreet on air, my wife used to say to me, in the early days of our marriage, she sometimes would say to me things like, “My father would never have said something like” — I would say something, or it’s not my turn to make the tea or something. He would always to do this for us.” And then I had to point out that there was really a — she wasn’t comparing like with like. And so one of the things we do as parents is to edit ourselves, which is lovely, in a way, for our children. Today, we are exploring the true hard work of love with the writer and philosopher Alain de Botton. Tippett: I’d like to go a slightly different place with all of this. And I think if we just try and explore the world “political,” “political” really means “outside of private space.” And we’re highly socialized creatures who really take our cues from what is going on around us. And we need to build a world that recognizes that if somebody goes “mm-hmm” rather than “this” or “thanks” rather than “yes” or whatever it is, this can ruin our day.What if the first question we asked on a date were, “How are you crazy? Philosopher and writer Alain de Botton’s essay “Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person” was, amazingly, the most-read article in in the news-drenched year of 2016.As people and as a culture, he says, we would be much saner and happier if we reexamined our very view of love. And you say, at one point, this is the relationship between Rabih and Kirsten. Look, one of the first important truths is, you’re crazy.How different would our relationships be, de Botton says, if the question we asked on an early date was, “How are you crazy? So we’ve got these two contrasting stories, and we get them muddled, and… Tippett: And also — and I feel like this should be obvious — but you just touched on art and culture and how that could help us complexify our understanding of this. Tippett: Your most recent book on this subject is , which is a novel, but it’s a novel that actually I feel you kind of weave a pedagogical narrator voice into it. And therefore, some often genuine legitimate things that we want to get across are just — come across as insults, as attempts to wound, and are therefore rejected, and the arteries of the relationship start to fur. Tippett: Someone recently said to me — I’m curious about how you would respond to this. So as — now that I have young adult children, when you hear that coming out of the mouth of your 21-year-old, “He should know. And if a child says — if you walk home, and a child says, “I hate you,” you immediately go, OK, that’s not quite true. So to begin with that sense of, “I’m quite tricky and in these ways.” That’s a very important starting point for being good at love. I think if you’re lonely with only — I don’t know — 40 percent of your life, that’s really good going. There’s this wonderful line from about these two parents with children: “The tired child in each of them is furious at how long it’s been neglected and in pieces.” Mr. She was comparing this man, her father, as a father but not as a lover. But it gives our children a really unnatural sense of what you can expect from another human being because we’re never as nice to probably anyone else on Earth as we are to our children. The things you’ve been saying, pointing out about how love really works, that people don’t learn when they’re humiliated, that self-righteousness is an enemy of love. And if we see an atmosphere of short tempers, of selfishness, etc., that will bolster those capacities within ourselves. And we should think about that as we approach, not just our personal relationships, but also our social and political relationships.I’m crazy like this,” and then understood that the real work of love is not in the falling, but in what comes after? Alain de Botton: We must fiercely resist the idea that true love must mean conflict-free love, that the course of true love is smooth. The course of true love is rocky and bumpy at the best of times. And one of the things you point out about , one of the things that’s wrong with all of that is that they — a lot of these just take us up to the wedding. And what we call a love story is really just the beginning of a love story, but we leave that out. It was a wise Jewish mother who had said to them, “Men marry women with the intention that they — with the idea that they will the stay the same. He should just know.”  And you just — what I also know is that grasping this, what you’re talking about, is work. Probably they’re tired, they’re hungry, something’s gone wrong, their tooth hurts, something. So often we blame our lovers; we don’t blame our view of love. Tippett: This right person, this creature does not exist. de Botton: And is, in fact, the enemy of good enough relationships. ” “Well, I just want to have a good enough relationship.” People would go, “I’m sorry your life is so grim.” But you want to go, “No, that’s really good. But also, behind that is the — as you say, these are dark truths, but it’s also a relief, as truth always ultimately is, if we can hear it. I think one of the greatest sorrows we sometimes have in love is the feeling that our lover doesn’t understand parts of us. You may not want to be lonely with over 50 percent, but I think there’s certainly a sizable minority share of your life which you’re going to have to endure without echo from those you love. Tippett: You know, I debated over whether I would discuss this with you, but I think I will. We’re all the time, we are hardwired to seek connections with others. And in the end, what I say to her, did end up saying to her was, “In a way, I’m probably behaving exactly like your father, but just not the father that you saw when he was around you.” Ms. I’m thinking a lot right now these days about how and if we could apply the intelligence we actually have with the experience of love, not the ideal, but the experience of love in our lives, to how we can be as citizens moving forward. If we see charity being exercised, if we see good humor, if we see forgiveness on display, again, it will lend support to those sides of ourselves. And I think it’s also such an important thing to bear in mind that the import of our conduct, moment to moment, that that is having effects that we can’t see. These things are humiliating — little things can deeply wound and humiliate. I want to know — I don’t want to let you go before asking what you think about — what’s your view of online dating because this a new way that so many people, perhaps most people, moving forward are meeting, are engaging this romantic side of themselves. de Botton: At one level, online dating promises to open up something absolutely wonderful, which is a more logical way of getting together with someone.